Heidi: 00:07

Welcome to the SlashTax Podcast. So this podcast specifically is about discovering legal tax strategies and incentives, powerful incentives for smart investing insights for business owners and real estate investors. So we talk with a lot of CEOs, CFOs, CPAs, business owners, and disruptors about how they're achieving success, where that's coming from, and how we can use the tax strategy as or the tax code as powerful incentives to help fund your business, fund innovation, and help you continue to grow your wealth instead of it being your number one liability. Brian, welcome to SlashTAS Podcast. I'm so excited.

Heidi: 00:47

So first off introducing Brian. Brian Payne is actually now the president and CFO of Engineered Tax Services, which we're so excited to have him on board. He's been a breath of fresh air for us at Engineered Tax Services. He is helping reimagine how tax, finance, and strategy can serve people, not just profit. And it's such an interesting perspective when we think about finance.

Heidi: 01:11

So this is going to be a fun conversation. His passion is building ecosystems of trust and innovation and human flourishing, cultivating companies and communities with intentional love, and purpose. Again, who thinks of that in the workspace? So whether it's tax strategy or business building or spiritual vision, his work's about creating rooted systems and bridges of belonging and structures where both people and the organization both can thrive together. And so I am so grateful for you being here.

Heidi: 01:42

And I love this conversation because I think a lot on my podcast, I try to bring the human aspect to business and to think about why, you know, we talk about this with some of my other guests. It's like, what is your why? Or they'll say, what is my passion? Because of what is your because for why you do things. So let's start first off with your role at Engineered Tax Services.

Heidi: 02:03

Talk a little bit about what you're doing and how you ended up here.

Brian: 02:07

Okay, yeah, very cool. And thank you for having me. I'm so excited too, this will be fun. Yes. Gonna be fun.

Brian: 02:14

I met Julio originally when I was working with Yucambe Mutombo, and I'm actually going to Atlanta, I'll be tomorrow. He passed away last year, they're having a service for him, so I'm going be there tomorrow. And, you know, I always say in life, there's brutal moments, but it does require intentionality usually, but you can make them fruitful. And it was through that brutal moment of losing him that fruit came, and that's how I ended up at ETS, and that's the fruitful part.

Heidi: 02:44

Wow.

Brian: 02:45

And it's been a blessing. So, last February is when I began, and I came on just as the CFO. And then in July, I was moved into the President and CFO role, and absolutely loving it. I really it's an honor, honestly, to be able to work with you and our amazing team of people. I'm loving it.

Brian: 03:07

I'm absolutely loving it.

Heidi: 03:09

It's, I'm sure it's a different role. Talk a little bit about your background and what you've been doing that led you on this path to what you're doing right now.

Brian: 03:18

Yeah, so I was always kind of in that finance operations mindset and space. I was with Bank of America and their corporate investment corporate treasury for years and took the entrepreneurial plunge. Admittedly, everything I've always done is, sorry, I've always catalyzed and served others try and co create their vision. That's what I love doing. I love co creating.

Brian: 03:47

And so, if you give me a vision, I want architect. And that's probably where I differ from most CFOs. A lot of CFOs are more of a scorekeeper. Oh, this is how we did. I think of it more as an architect of co creation.

Brian: 04:05

And that's why I'm always looking to bring the human element into it. I call it the pragmatism of love, is what I'm striving for, because you get what you pay for. And so, if I can put together a financial model, compensation model, incentivization plans, and things of that nature that actually pay you for doing the very things that we want you to do, you get it, right? Yeah. And so, that's why I'm very intentional about always incorporating mission, vision, values and things of that nature into everything that I build because I know as we grow as a company, if I'm saying I want this, but then I'm paying you to do that, I'm gonna get that.

Brian: 04:54

Yep. So, classic ounce of prevention's worth a pound of cure. I put a lot of focus into that architect and that planning so that when we go and scale, we're growing towards our mission vision values rather than away.

Heidi: 05:10

That leads me into maybe a difficult question. And you and I've had this conversation. I'm like, I think it may be easier to build a startup company from scratch and build mission, vision, and values for something that you're building from scratch or bringing people in and saying, this is what we're having buy in for, here we go. At our company, we are almost twenty five years old and we are professional services. And although we have always loved and talked about the fact that we are very innovative and Julio, our founder, is very entrepreneurial, always evolving, always growing, I love his perspective, inherently you do tend to have people in cultures who tend to get stuck doing what they've always done.

Heidi: 05:55

And we have had a tremendous amount of success over the last twenty five years. And with that success, I think people do want to fall into a path where they're like, yeah, this is what we do. This works and we're going to keep doing that. And as with all things and innovation in our world right now with AI and technology, And I feel like a significant shift towards authenticity and being real and human, which is one of my favorite shifts in business today. It's not always the easiest thing, and not everybody is that amenable to change and to shift or innovation.

Heidi: 06:34

And so in that sense, what have you found to be some of the struggles with working with a company that's older and a little bit more, structured in its ways versus where you want to go. What is that mission, vision, vision, and values of ETS and where you want to go? And then talk a little bit about the struggles of what we're going through to get to that point, because we're in the middle of it, right?

Brian: 07:04

Yes, yeah, we are, it's fun. Yeah, last December we put together our new mission, vision, and values. And I love how we did it because ETS is also part of a family with TGP and IPA, and I love that we adopted the same mission, now our how is different, right, different companies. And then our vision and values, and we put people first, and that's our first value, right? And it is more difficult moving and turning a ship that's large, right?

Brian: 07:37

They talk about the larger companies or whales, right? Turning them around, it's sometimes years. A startup, a small company, it's a lot easier. A handful of people, hey, do we like this? Yeah, let's go.

Brian: 07:49

Yeah. We don't have that. We're not a jet ski, we're more of a large boat, right? And so, is a little more I would say the word that comes to mind is it's just a little more intensive, right? And it does take longer.

Brian: 08:09

The way I approach it is mostly I focus on growth and molting. Those are two concepts that I use a lot. And so right now at ETS, I've been saying to for a while now, we're molting, right? A crab goes through 20 shells in its life. Eagles molt and get new beaks and talons and feathers.

Brian: 08:31

And what happens is, when you're molting as a company, you're kind of leaving your old shell behind. And that's always a sticky situation because you still have clients and people you're serving. You can't just eradicate what you're doing or you're going to drop the ball. But so you're leaving the shell and you're stepping into the new one while you're also building the new one. And inevitably what happens is there are people who look back at the old shell longingly, right?

Heidi: 09:02

Yeah, sometimes it's tempting. I

Brian: 09:05

was comfortable over there. Knew what I was doing and we knew it worked. We don't even know if this new shell is going to work. And what's always the most difficult phase for me is there's always a phase where we haven't stepped into the new shell with any efficacy yet. And then people start looking back and they're technically right.

Brian: 09:24

We were better back then, right? That's when you really have to have the mental fortitude, and that's why I also focus so much on habits. Yeah. Aristotle said, Excellence is not an act, but a habit. And that's why on the incentivization side, I'm always trying to incentivize the habits that drive our people and our teams to where we're going.

Brian: 09:50

Because I talk about inertia a lot, and a thing at rest stays at rest. And when you were in a certain inertia where we always do it this way, when I'm trying to flip it, that's a bit of a schlag, right? But once you kind of catch the rhythm and you start to see it, you get into that new shell or you get your new feathers and beak, and then you see how it's working and how much better it is. You're like, Oh, okay, this is pretty awesome. It's getting people to that.

Brian: 10:18

That's always the most difficult part. Also, with a larger company, you will have some attrition. There are some people who just aren't built for the new shell and it's not bad. It's not that we're right and they're wrong or anything like that, but it's, hey, we're going in a new direction now, we're going into a new shell. It may not be for everybody, but it'll also attract new people as well, right?

Brian: 10:40

And so, that's why I focus a lot on the tap root. Most people focus when they're growing a company, focus on the tree, notably the crown, leaves and all that, The pretty part, right? And I get that, but the trunk and the taproot are really where I tend to focus more. And so that's where the culture and that's where the mission vision values are so critical, because that's your taproot, that's your trunk, that's the nutrients to the rest of it, right? And so, we anticipated this year was going to be a little difficult, particularly in the first half because we're trying new things, we're building and stepping into new things.

Brian: 11:20

That's why I focus so much on our taproot and trunk. And that to me is where the financial planning and forecasting come into play and also the culture. And so when you put a good culture in with a good financial model, and tax strategies have a vital component to that, many people tend to see a tax strategy as, oh, at the end of the year, oh, we owe taxes, crud. Alter prevention, pound a cure, put that in before, whether it's R and D tax credits, 170, 90, whatever it is, but build that into your plan and build around it because the IRS tax code actually rewards those who plan and are a little more on the aggressive side. And so, and innovative.

Brian: 12:04

The

Heidi: 12:06

IRS is incentivizing risk and innovation. So those companies that are willing to take a leap of faith is the way I like to look at it, whether they're creating new products or systems, or whether they are expanding into new locations or building new buildings and buying into their business, that is essentially what they're incentivizing. It is those companies who are putting their neck out there and saying, we're gonna take a leap of faith, we're gonna grow, invest and innovate. And I love that because too often the tax code is looked as a big negative, but in fact, there are so many opportunities there for businesses to help support their success. So, yeah, I think that's a huge.

Brian: 12:48

Yeah, I see it as the government is a little bit of like a business partner. Hey, you want to innovate? You want to try new things? Whatever you're going after, we're here to meet you halfway. Let's see how we can make this better together, right?

Brian: 13:01

And most people don't view it that way. And so, that's why I try and put it all holistically together at the forecasting side of things combined with a strong culture. And then, the last part, you have to have good leadership too. Because when people want to look back, like I was talking about, you have to have people who are willing to put their neck out there a little bit and say, Hey, I know it was maybe more comfortable back there, but we're moving ahead. That's where your focus is so critical, right?

Brian: 13:32

And if you have good leaders, you have a good plan, and you have a good culture, and you start stepping into it, all of a sudden it grows. And the first 10% of it is always

Heidi: 13:45

a schlock.

Brian: 13:47

You're just like, kind of like, where's it going? You don't even know yet, But then you start to see the fruits of it. That's where I kind of I love the growth metaphor. I talk in garden terms a lot, because now your new we're calling it like ETS two point zero, it starts to grow and bloom, and it's not at the expense of the past. It's not that the past withers and dies, but it just starts to blossom and grow deeper, roots down and higher because you've integrated all of this new technology, new culture, new services, all the things that we're doing, and you put it together, and now you've started to create a whole new force that you were never even thinking was possible a couple of years ago.

Heidi: 14:28

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because something that was very unexpected with you coming on board is you were initially brought on as our CFO. And that was a big piece of really looking at the finances, also at a time when we had set some really dramatic goals for growth. So we are talking significant revenue growth goals, you know, looking at, look, we want to scale. We want to, you know, look at this dramatic, huge, I mean, we're talking five times growth in a relatively short period of time.

Heidi: 15:01

And so you were brought on as CFO and I'm like, okay, we want you to dive in as a piece of this. And as you shifted into this role as president, one thing that's been very fascinating, and use this example, another client that we recently met with, you know, our team was talking about meeting with that CPA firm who actually has an in house psychologist.

Brian: 15:22

Mhmm.

Heidi: 15:22

And I thought that was so fascinating. So not to call you our in house psychologist, but Brian's kind of our in house psychologist.

Brian: 15:29

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. Right.

Heidi: 15:32

But so often I mean, never in my career have I been in a situation where we've had someone on our team who is working on helping our teams be better humans, understanding what are your strengths as a person, as an individual, as a human being, how do you tap into those? How do we tap into those? Not only because understanding those strengths and how those contribute to the team ultimately make that person more in line with where they're at intrinsically and what is more fulfilling and satisfying. So you have happier people, you have more fulfilled people who love what they do, who are more highly producing and work better as a team, everybody elevates. And it's such a beautiful model that I wholeheartedly believe in, but that has not been our focus.

Heidi: 16:25

So again, Putting people first is the first part of our mission. And you have really made it a point to spend a tremendous amount of time with our teams spread out all over the country, traveling, spending days with people, having meaningful human conversations. Why do you think that matters? In the big scheme of things, we need to grow our business. We need to increase revenue.

Heidi: 16:49

It matters where the numbers are. Why does it matter to understand who the people are on the team?

Brian: 16:54

That's a wonderful question. I could opine on that for hours, but I'll try and not hijack this entire The two biggest things that I focus on in response to that are, one, I see as I focus very much on the spiritual side of things, and if you want to make that a little less ethereal, it's really, I just have, when I have a deeper understanding of how your mind works and how you process, what it gives me is, one, it gives me your lens and perspective a little bit. I'll never have it fully, but I can start to see the world through your eyes, and particularly since we are remote and you're out in Las Vegas and I'm in West Palm, very far away. When you make a decision, when you say a comment, when you write an email, I'm not sitting there with no context, just like, What in the world is Heidi saying? Right?

Brian: 17:52

I'm like, Oh, oh, I think she was probably going this. And then it's so funny, now that I've gotten to know you better, generally, I pontificate as to where you were going with something, I'm about 90% accurate. Right? You always give me something that I didn't really think about, but like, like, okay, cool. And so, just, I call that attunement, right?

Brian: 18:11

You have to be attuned. And so, that to me, the in person is us tuning in. So, when we come together as an orchestra, we're harmonious and we create a symphony, not just a cacophony of noises, right? And then, also, I want each individual very rooted because I see business as a garden, we're just growing, right? And I see us growing individually and collectively, and then you start cross pollinating and that's where it gets fun, right?

Brian: 18:42

And I want, particularly at the leadership level, I want everybody to be very comfortable in their own skin, is a common phrase for it, but I want you to be attuned to yourself as well so that when you are building and co creating with me, I know what you're planting and you know what you're planting, and you're planting good seeds and good soil, right? And so, when you have rooted individuals coming together as a collective in an attuned way, and we're all planting our own seeds individually and collectively. The garden you start to grow gets fun, you know, it's beautiful, actually. So, that's why I hope that answered your question.

Heidi: 19:28

So, then in that scenario, let's say in a perfect world, you create that environment, you create this beautiful garden and everything's flourishing and it's being well watered and, you know, it's got all the nutrients. How does that affect the bottom line in your opinion? Why would it?

Brian: 19:43

Yeah, oh, absolutely it does. Yeah, because particularly with technology getting so good, the biggest differentiator between humans and technology, in my humble opinion, is inspiration. And so, what I've noticed is when you have people inspired, and then coming together and combining their inspiration, then going out and growing it. The crown of your trees get beautiful, and that's kind of your top line, right? And then, I don't do this in a way where I'm just, like, willy nilly spending and doing nonsensical things.

Brian: 20:26

Stewardship is a big word for me on the finance side. I like to focus on stewardship, and that's where, again, the tax code to me is it's one of my arrows that I have to be a good steward, right? And so really, if you have a collective that is inspired, attuned, and then that's why I like the habit of excellence, right? And you have people being promoted for being excellent. You will be effective at everything that you do because you're inspired and you're integrated.

Heidi: 21:02

Okay.

Brian: 21:03

And then you put that together with good technology and good plans, your bottom line will be exponentially better, in my opinion, than if you have a bunch of individuals just kind of doing their own thing and then you try and put an exclamation point on it at the end of the year.

Heidi: 21:19

Yeah. Okay. So for listeners, it's one thing when you've got a business or business owner or entrepreneur who is running their business, they are dictating what's happening with their team, they're hiring the right people, They're hoping that they're focusing on that. And I think that's almost easier than some of the scenarios I see where we're dealing with organizations that have multiple partners. And so in that situation, for example, CPA firms, which we work with a lot of CPA firms, one of the struggles in that space is oftentimes you'll have a group of partners that are all equal partners in that organization.

Heidi: 21:59

And I have seen in many cases over the years where these are wonderful firms and they're doing really well financially successful, they're growing, but they don't have the synergies. They don't have a united vision. We see them oftentimes working very siloed, almost working as if each of them has their own business. They do things their own way, oftentimes with their downline teams. So you have a lot of individualized processes, and it works for them.

Heidi: 22:29

But as a collective, it doesn't necessarily work for the collective. And when you see a company like that with dramatic growth goals, it typically does not support significant growth. And we've seen that in many cases. And I've had many of my clients ask me those questions. You know, what do we do?

Heidi: 22:45

How do we help facilitate an organization where we can create more of this collaboration? So a question I have for you is long winded

Brian: 22:53

Yeah. Know.

Heidi: 22:53

Background. But a question I have for you is in an organization like that, how can they what, what are, what's something that they could do, whether they hire someone or consultants, or they look at something that could help them come better in line and understand the value of that synergy? Because I think sometimes people think it's fine. I want to do things my own way. But in reality, I think oftentimes we end up hurting ourselves by doing that.

Heidi: 23:22

And it's the opposite of what we think. So anyway, back to my question, what do you think that organizations like that could do to focus more on this and why does it matter?

Brian: 23:31

Yeah, great question. So why it matters to me is the word untapped is generally what I use for those kinds of companies. And it's very common. It's easier to work in a silo. It is easier.

Heidi: 23:46

Absolutely.

Brian: 23:47

But generally, in my experience, the easiest is that's the path that takes you to nowhere. And so, if you want to tap into I would look at the opportunity costs that you have by staying in the silos. Yeah, it's easy and familiar, but you're going to hit a plateau. And in my opinion, generally speaking, the way to break through those plateaus is integration, it's synergizing, it's coming together as a team and as a collective. You know, if you put a thousand EV batteries together, it's not the output of a thousand EV batteries, it's like equivalent to like a million or something, It's like that exponential kind of growth.

Brian: 24:30

Human minds and inspiration, I think do the same thing, right? So if you have four partners all working individually in four silos, you're going to hit here. Bringing them together, I think your upside becomes limitless, right? And that's where the growth comes in.

Heidi: 24:45

One

Brian: 24:46

next step that I like to try and do is, one, I focus on, I try and get people to absorb without understanding.

Heidi: 24:59

Okay, you need to explain that one more.

Brian: 25:01

Okay, because generally when you have four individuals working in four silos, it's because you have four different mindsets, four different brains. They don't understand one another. And most times when people lack understanding, we tend to judge or just say no. Right? It's like wall it off, right?

Brian: 25:23

Where I and I struggled with this very much, so I have to be intentional still. But the reason I say absorb without understanding is I learned to just kind of receive it and don't judge it all. And I actually get curious about it. The first step that I always take is I'll absorb and I'll receive, and I try and find the highest area of congruency, Something that resonates, right? Going back to attunement, I'm about resonation a lot.

Brian: 25:56

So someone could say a bunch of stuff and I'm like, I don't agree with 95% of that, but there's 5% where I get it, I'll focus there. So I asked a question about that. Tell me a little more about that, unpack that. How do you use that? Now I call it, we call it bridge building, right?

Brian: 26:11

Now you've kind of created a bridge. Like, okay, that other 95%, I'm going to figure that out later. But this 5% we can bridge on. Now you've connected, you've integrated your minds in a little bit. That one little bridge of that 5% where you're congruent, that's where you can start to grow.

Brian: 26:32

If you can just do that even with your four partners, do it individually, and then also come together collectively, just find one thing that you can connect on. Start there, and then watch it blossom, And now, what happens in my experience is that 95% that didn't make sense to me, as we're growing together, now all of a sudden, I'm like, I may not understand it, but it's actually good having their perspective and their mindset because they ask questions and they see things that I would never ask nor see. And so, now they're giving me a new perspective and a new lens that I didn't have on my own. Yeah. And so, now you're getting to see things in new ways.

Brian: 27:13

And that's where I think connectivity is so fun, because in a way, I'm very empathetic. In a way, when I get to work with you and then work with Kim or Mike or anybody else on the team, I try and actually start to see the opportunity or the problem, whatever we're talking about, I try and see it through their eyes a little bit, and I get to see the world differently, and it's kind of fun. And when you put it all together, now your blind spots are greatly reduced.

Heidi: 27:40

Yeah. Well, it's interesting because the power of unity and bringing all of that energy together in a collective way is so much more powerful. And one of the, like I've said it many times, but one of the phrases that of our partners was using for a long time was, what was it? Rising tides raise all boats.

Brian: 28:00

Yeah.

Heidi: 28:01

And, you know, at first I was like, that's a weird phrase. But over time, it is so relevant and accurate. And so it's just fascinating. It has been a fascinating year because, again, you were really brought on as a CFO and were like, let's look at the numbers. Let's get our financials in line.

Heidi: 28:20

Let's look at the bottom line and what are our goals? How do we drive revenue? And much of the focus has been on fixing our relationships and building understanding. And what's coming from it is renewed excitement. To your point, the molting can be painful for some people, and we've probably had more change in our company this year with certain people leaving and then hiring new people and some change.

Heidi: 28:46

But it's been really healthy change. And even that was done mostly in a very positive way where it's so important to link to what the what the mission, vision, and values are and allowing people to come into a space where they want to thrive and then empowering them to do that. What are your thoughts on empowering staff? Especially, okay, we are a highly remote company, so lots of remote people. There's always this interesting back and forth between do we manage and oversee or micromanage almost?

Heidi: 29:25

What are they doing? Are they working? How do we look at, at productivity? How do we know people are doing certain things? Versus how do we inspire and encourage and elevate people to want to make them exponentially better?

Heidi: 29:38

Not just for the sake of the company, but as human beings, because I believe most people thrive in that space of overcoming challenges and learning and growing and feeling like they're contributing to something larger than themselves. At least that's my philosophy. Right. I love that. Whether it's true or not.

Heidi: 29:56

But there are some people that are not comfortable in that space and they don't want to be, they don't want to take, I think that ownership. So what do you think is the most important thing with empowering staff and that balance between looking at it again from a financial perspective of ROI, Are we getting productivity? How are are people doing there versus the human aspect of it? Because we wanna be human. We wanna connect.

Heidi: 30:21

Everything wants to be lovely and connected and and a big happy family. But at the same time, you have to look at the bottom line and the numbers matter. Right. Where is that balance?

Brian: 30:31

So, I hope you don't get mad at me, but I would like to wordsmith your inquiry a little bit. I don't see things in balance. When people ask me about a work life balance, I don't answer that question in a balanced way. I see things in spirals. And you are right, right now, the focus has mostly been more on the people, again, that taproot and trunk and kind of bringing that in.

Brian: 30:59

And it's also the soil, because I want to create a space where people can feel seen and loved, and they can become who they are rooted, and it flourishes there, right? Now, what's actually kind of funny now, it doesn't always happen this

Heidi: 31:14

way,

Brian: 31:14

but oftentimes a natural byproduct, particularly if you are, as part of the culture, I'm always driving stewardship. We are reinforcing efficiency. And so, sometimes it's an ancillary benefit, but what I also tend to do is the focus kind of shifts as we grow. Right now, it's very much the soil, the roots, the trunk is the focus, and numbers are a little more back burnered, but I'm always monitoring, it's not that I'm like avoiding them, but as we grow and as our soil is good, that's when I start to shift a little more into a numbers focus, we also start, that's where accountability tends to augment as well. Because anytime you're doing something new, you're gonna have to iterate more.

Brian: 32:07

We've never done some of these things. Some of the stuff we're doing doesn't exist, right? Yeah. And so, we're creating something that's never existed before. You're going to fail forward on that, right?

Brian: 32:18

Marines plan only 75% of a mission. They leave 25% open for variables that can just come. I kind of see us in that phase of things. As we've grown it and co created it, I always want to keep doing new things, I don't want to stagnate, But as that kind of blossoms and you start to see it, that's when the accountability and the numbers become a little more in focus, because now we've built it, now we've created it, now we have to make sure that we're stewarding it properly. And so, it's a little bit of a phase approach in when I do that.

Brian: 32:53

But to go back to your original question of how you balance the people and the numbers, if you ingrain in the people a culture of stewardship, the numbers tend to work, and then, you know, last year we had to make some moves, and we do some things to make sure that the company is thriving and growing, and making sure that the numbers are where they need to be, but I try and do it in a way where the focus is more on the people driving the numbers versus my numbers driving what I do. I want the people to catalyze.

Heidi: 33:26

Okay.

Brian: 33:27

And then that becomes kind of a spiral because what you're doing is you're creating an energy in your people that foster growth and efficiency and stewardship. And so, your numbers tend to look pretty good, right?

Heidi: 33:43

It's so interesting because it is such a out of the box way of thinking philosophy as it relates to finance. Oh, yeah. So it's it's it's been very refreshing. It's been a complete shift from what we have focused on as a company for fifteen plus, twenty plus years. Before we kind of wrap this up, being slash tax podcast, talk a little bit about also incorporating strategy and really making sure that we're also strategically looking, when we're empowering people, at those opportunities and embracing those as it relates to finance.

Brian: 34:26

Yeah, so on the strategy side of that, what I do is, one, I'm always looking for the different tools and opportunities at my disposal. Tax is oftentimes never considered a tool.

Heidi: 34:40

Never, exactly.

Brian: 34:42

But when I put our financial forecasts together, I incorporate the tax strategies into it. And so, part of it is when you're forecasting, be as holistic as possible. Don't limit yourself just to, Hey, these are my line items. Take the wider lens and look at all the opportunities you can to optimize the stewardship of what you're doing, right? And then what I do from there is, as we go throughout the year, if something starts to look a little amiss or awry, or it's not going according to the plan, that's where and this is where I love the people part, again, kind of a spiral.

Brian: 35:24

I'll go to them and say, Hey, this is not unfolding as we anticipated. Tell me what's going on here, and let's see what's going to happen. And then you're in a much better position to navigate it, and I like to call it, you need to glean the good. And sometimes it's not even based on the people. Sometimes it's a macro outside of you.

Heidi: 35:52

Okay.

Brian: 35:53

Like this year, we woke up in January, and there was a court case that impacted one of our line pretty heavily.

Heidi: 36:02

Yep. That

Brian: 36:04

had nothing to do with us, But it negatively impacted us pretty greatly, right? We can sit here and just get all bitter about it, or we can come together and say, Hey, how do we take this negative, this bad thing that happened, and how do we turn it into a positive? How do we glean the good out of it? And when you get a culture and you get a team of people, they're not even seeing anything as bad anymore. It's just an opportunity, right?

Brian: 36:29

I call problems opportunities in business clothes, right? It's an opportunity to get better, and you keep doing that. And what you do is you'll create a pulse where your people are growing and thriving. They're coming together, they're taking on challenging things. What we do is not easy.

Brian: 36:48

Yeah. But we embrace those challenges and we come together and we go out and no matter what hits us in the face, we take it and we're like, okay, good. Here's how we're gonna take this bad thing, glean the good out of it, get better, learn lessons. Now our company's thriving in a whole new way. I just want to do that every day.

Heidi: 37:12

Okay, so I see a recurring theme that whether we're looking at financial aspects and tax strategies, we're prospectively looking at how we can reduce things or increase the bottom line, or we're looking at people or problems or teams, it's really perspective. And I think what your main focus is, is really looking again at opportunities. And it's a mindset shift. It's choosing to look at things as positives and opportunities to grow. So as we wrap up, where does that come from in you?

Brian: 37:49

That comes mostly from growing up and starting my career in a world that wasn't really built for me. It was painful. It was very painful, honestly. And I felt very unappreciated, unseen, and unloved. And I grew towards bitter.

Brian: 38:08

I almost got bitter, So,

Heidi: 38:11

I mean, that not only drives bitterness, but it is a We're talking about gardens. It's a breeding ground for being deflated.

Brian: 38:24

Yeah, toxicity. It's destructive. And so I kind of licked my wounds and I was like, you know what? I'm going to start building companies that are good soil. That's really where it came from.

Brian: 38:40

Not even for me to judge whether you're a good plant or anything. That's not it. I just want to create good soil so that when you plant your seed, it can flourish. Now, I want that seed to be congruent with the company and all that, obviously. But that's honestly where it came from.

Brian: 38:55

I went around and I tried, and no disparagement to any of my previous companies and things of that nature, but none of them were built for me. And so I was like, I want to start building things that actually promote the pragmatism of love because it's crazy to me that I think a lot of people and when I say love, it's Filet O love, right? It's the building together love. We're all humans together, right? We're in this together.

Brian: 39:21

We're all citizens of this planet. And, you know, it's almost like we've accepted this as a fate where it's like, okay, when I'm doing loving stuff and good stuff, that's like nonprofit family and friends. When it comes to making money, it's cutthroat, I go to work and whatever, right? I don't like that. Because

Heidi: 39:43

you tend to be very siloed. It's like I'm two different people.

Brian: 39:47

And I'm just like, no, I want to be loved in everything that I do. And so that's why last year particularly, I focused so much on the people and the connectivity because really what I'm trying to do is just create new soil so that when we do plant seeds, and sometimes we even scatter, the odds of them flourishing are greatly higher than if I just focused only on the numbers.

Heidi: 40:14

Yeah. Well, I think it is a testament to your commitment to positivity and to putting people first. That is our goal with clients, as well as internally with our staff. And we're wanting our staff to feel that way so that they can also share that with our clients and our, you know, our partners that we work with. But I think it's a testament to you to show that that idea is very different than what our goals and missions have been for many years.

Heidi: 40:47

But to show that already we've seen such a dramatic shift on the financial side of it, where we're more profitable than ever, but the focus has really been on building the relationships and connections. So before we wrap up, any final comments or things you wanna share, you know, keep in mind, I love these conversations and I hope people find it valuable.

Brian: 41:06

Yeah, hope they do too. Don't know if this is completely congruent with most of your other podcasts and episodes, but I would just like to end with one, thank you. This has been a pleasure. It's been so fun to have this conversation with you. And the only parting words I would just say is, it's good.

Brian: 41:28

In fact, it's great to become rooted in yourself and confident in who you are. And really what the goal for individuals and companies, in my opinion, is find the pairing, the company and the team that works for you where you can root and be yourself and go out and be an optimal version and where you're valued. That's the biggest thing is I feel like so many people, they go out and they work at companies where they're not valued, and I don't see how that is sustainable. If you're working at a company that doesn't value you, I don't think it's sustainable. And so at ETS, I always want to have soil where when you come here, you can grow.

Brian: 42:18

And we want to grow with you, and we want to empower you to grow. And you are valued, you are seen, and you are loved, and you are heard. And when you have people growing like that, it's really fun. That's what we're building together. And it's

Heidi: 42:32

That's exactly right. That's certainly what we're striving for. And it's been an amazing year. I know for myself personally, I very much feel that. And I think I've shared it a lot in this podcast that I love bringing the whole holistic person in.

Heidi: 42:47

I love that shift in business that it doesn't have to be we are this, you know, in the box professional in a suit and tie, and we keep all that other stuff separate, that we're moving into this era where, especially now with technology and and all these things that we're not even sure if anything's real anymore, that real aspect of people, I think, means more than ever before. And I've actually come to appreciate that and love that in in finding, and probably its age as well, getting to a point in life where you just feel like, look, I'm gonna be authentic. I'm gonna be me. And we're human. All of us are human, whether it's our professional status, whether it's what we're doing for work or in life or all those things.

Heidi: 43:26

And so as we make that shift in ETS, it does create so much more fulfillment and joy and peace. And then also that culminates, I think, in motivation. It is a fun conversation, little bit different than tact necessarily, but that's really what it's all about.

Brian: 43:44

Yeah, it is. And I'm thrilled to hear that because the peace and the joy that you're talking about, that's the fruit. Yep. You know, and the fruit, I guess my ending now, new ending comment, but the fruit that I look at is the numbers do matter, right? You want to hit those, right?

Brian: 44:01

So, that is part of your fruit. But then you also want to take the wider lens and look, are people operating out of joy, harmony, whatever your values are that you want. Make sure you're also bearing that fruit. And when once as a company, you're hitting your bottom line, and your vision, values, and mission, you are a force. You are a force at that point, and now you can go out and grow into whatever you want to be.

Heidi: 44:31

Amazing. There you go. Then you can grow into whatever you want to be. Love that so much. And so with that, thank you for listening.

Heidi: 44:38

Again, this is SlashTax Podcast, and we really just try to have meaningful conversations about tax strategy, incentives for investors, business owners, and CPA firms to think outside the box. Be innovative, be a disruptor, be who you are, and go out and be a force. That's where we're going to follow that with Brian.

Brian: 44:59

I like it.

Heidi: 45:00

Go out and be a force. Thanks for listening.