Hello again, this is Heidi Henderson with Slash Tax Podcast.

Today I'm gonna do something a little bit different, and instead of doing a broad lengthy
introduction, I'm going to pass it straight to Devin with Tax Hive because

I think Devin is amazing and his firm is so interesting.

I think you guys are gonna be thrilled to hear about what they're doing, what they're
building.

And Devin, I'm so excited for you to share with people like what is your background and
let's talk about you and talk talk about tax hive uh and get in the weeds on this.

Yeah, thank you so much, Heidi.

It's so uh exciting and you know.

and privileged to be on Slash Tax and to be in front of so many wonderful CPAs and
business clients, investors, everyone that's in your ecosystem.

And yeah, just by way of introduction, I'm Devin Egan, president here at Tax Hive.

We are a Kevin O'Leary company.

So for those of you that care, Kevin O'Leary, Mr.

Wonderful from Shark Tank, you know, you may love him, you may hate him.

Either way, you know who he is.

is.

Uh he's the other bald guy in the organization.

So we're always looking to, you know.

hire and uh acquire people that are a little bit folically challenged.

But um no, so I'm uh president of the company and, you know, primarily manage our business
development, our business strategy and also a lot of our presenting and educating and

delivering content and you know, training to prospective clients and just our general
ecosystem.

But

But tax hive as a firm, you know, you asked the question where you kind of mentioned how
we're unique in the space.

We really got our origins long ago in as part of a real estate venture that we had, where
we had a lot of real estate clients.

My background is real estate, sales, marketing.

And I guess I could just kind of put on the table right out of the gates here.

I'm not a CPA, I'm not the numbers contrary in our

We have all of those wonderful people that are highly, you know.

sophisticated and educated and licensed and specialized in everything that they do.

And while we were building our real estate portfolio and operating as you know business
owners, I'm in a bunch of other businesses alongside Tax IBC Pickleball behind me.

I'm in the pickleball business, passive fund stuff that way.

But we started to identify a massive gap in the market.

particularly with real estate investors, but really with every business owner out there.

there who was working with a very talented CDA compliance officer, someone who you know
knew how to prepare and file taxes really well and kept everything accurate and by the

book and checked the right boxes and calculated the numbers the right way.

But there was this gap in strategy of just missing productions and missing ways to save
money with credits or tax.

gaps or what we call dynasty strategies.

And

what we kind of found was that you either had to be a really, really large business for
anyone to pay attention to you, or you just kind of got lost in the shuffle and a lot of

firms either weren't willing to take the time or didn't really specialize in strategies
that would help, you know, let's call it a million dollar gross revenue business really

capture the tax code and take full advantage of it.

So that's where tax high kind of got its origins.

And we really just kind of focused our firm on

tax strategy and tax planning while also taking care of the very necessity necessary, but
I would call them somewhat uh ordinary task of bookkeeping and tax preparation.

So that's I feel like where we're unique in the market.

is that we can help someone who's you know just starting out, making their first quarter
of a million bucks uh on up to a 10, 20 million dollar business that wants to legally pay

less in tax.

Amazing.

I I love the introduction.

I appreciate that.

And there's a reason that we're talking and for listeners, I mean I'm always talking about
tax strategy.

Of course with the company that I'm an executive with engineered tax services, we focus on
handling the incentives for real estate investors.

So the way that Devin

And I connected through Tax Hive and what they're doing is the synergies between a
specialized firm like ours and what Tax Hive is doing because there is this dramatic need.

Like Devin, you hit it on the head.

It's like there's this total gap of service in the market when we look at the CPA industry
and specialization in really almost any vertical, I think, but particularly real estate.

So

Why do you think it matters if someone is or is not working with a CPA that has a
specialization or understanding of real estate?

Yeah, I mean I think the reason that it matters is that behind all of

that process is money.

And generally people care about their money.

And, you know, nobody would roll up to a call it drive-thru restaurant and be okay paying
an extra ten dollars per meal.

Nobody would be okay going into a shoe shop and just because you were unaware or

or not informed.

to spend an extra twenty dollars per pair of shoes that you bought.

And taxes isn't that much different.

It's, you know, if you don't know and you're not aware, you are overpaying.

And for the real estate person out there and any other business owner, the tax code was
written to incentivize your behavior.

And the behavior you're already exhibiting, which is I take risk, I deploy capital, I
employ people, I contribute to the economy.

And Uncle Sam always

said, if you do those things, I'll give you some tax breaks.

And a lot of people unknowingly view the tax code as their enemy when really it's actually
your advantage.

It is your friend if you know how to take advantage of it.

And maybe some of the challenge that exists out of there, a lot of the noise in the
marketplace, is that the average real estate professional andor business owner doesn't

know where to go.

They don't know where to look for help and they're on a Reddit thread somewhere.

they're hiking in a promise.

an AI, you know, agent and they're like, Can I really trust this?

Does this actually fit for me?

Or am I just gonna get myself in a bunch of trouble?

And that's where Taxive comes in to just say, Hey, we're gonna help you.

We're gonna discover those things on your behalf.

We're gonna help you implement and you can sleep at night knowing you didn't do anything
illegal or nefarious.

And that's when, you know

know Heidi and your team uh over engineers.

comes in to say, Hey, we can have these strategic partners that are highly specialized in
these certain strategies also, you know, help you with getting the water to the end of the

row and helping you keep as much money as possible.

Like

But

That is the epitome of what I talk about on this podcast all the time.

And when I present in person, I'll say it all the time.

I'll ask for a show of hands, you know, who here views the IRS as their partner in the
success of their business, or looking them at looking at them as being some type of a

funding partner.

And everybody laughs and nobody would possibly raise a hand.

But to your point, it's exactly right.

Like there is a roadmap.

The difficulty with the roadmap, it is, it is about as complicated as, you know, imagine
looking at one

Giant map, a literal road map of the United States and all of the roads that exist in this
country.

That's kind of what the US IRS tax code looks like.

And uh I pulled a stat in prep of this podcast, and uh I was actually surprised, and I
work a lot in the CPA industry.

Uh, 86% of existing CPA firms have fewer than 10 employees.

So the vast majority of CPA firms, many of the CPAs that our clients are working with as
taxpayers, as business owners, as real estate investors, they are working with maybe it

was the CPA that their parents worked with, or it's a friend of theirs, or it's someone
that they know that's local.

That is not a bad thing.

I never want to kind of throw anybody under the bus.

I have amazing CPAs that I work with and accountants.

What I want to highlight a little bit is how people can kind of understand maybe why they
are paying overpaying, maybe why they or their CPAs haven't identified some opportunities.

I mean, we can always talk about cost egg as an easy one because it's like the constant.

question that I get all the time is, well, if this is true, then why didn't I know about
it?

Or why wasn't this mentioned?

Or why wasn't this provided as an option for me?

And it's not out of negligence.

And I think that's a really important thing.

So dive into that a little bit, the complexity of the code and and the sort of discrepancy
between um different levels of taxpayers and the service provided, because before you

answer that question, um

That is essentially why our founder started Engineered Tax Services.

25 years ago, he worked for a big four firm.

He was looking at the top one percenters, the Fortune 100 companies that had every tax
strategy in the world.

They had the roadmap and they had all of these people.

Now, granted, they pay, you know.

$500,000 a year or more to prepare their tax returns and strategize.

I mean, a normal person, a normal taxpayer, they don't have access to that type of uh
expertise and specialized knowledge.

That's that's kind of how we started this firm was, you know, to what Julio will say is
democratize the tax code and make it really available for every single taxpayer at every

level.

Um, I think that you all are very similar in that concept.

And so I would love for you to

kind of expound more on what you said as it relates to that and how you're servicing
clients uh with that understanding and and sort of setting that baseline.

Yeah for sure.

And I I think that the first thing I can put on the table is that we're not our firm

does not disparage any existing CPA tax preparer that someone is already working with.

Most of those people are doing fantastic work.

They know their stuff.

They are precisely accurate.

They have attention to detail.

They're doing a task that you paid them to do.

do.

Yeah.

They're not doing a task we didn't pay them to do is maybe the fairest way to put it.

And when we deliver a tax plan to clients, they oftentimes want some pitchforks and

know, like they're mad and they want to go back to their CPA and say, why didn't you?

And they're ready to like, you know, slap someone and we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,
whoa.

You don't need to be mad at anybody.

You need them.

You still need a great tax preparer, even in the context of robust

thermo tax

strategy.

And so that's the first, I think, distinction that I would make is that don't be mad at
your tax.

This would be like getting mad at the cashier at the grocery store when they ring you up.

Because, you know, maybe they didn't follow you around and identify all of the coupons and
the rebates and the discounts that you could have gotten on a different loaf of bread or

on a different set of facts and circumstances, right?

So what we want to deliver, what we kind of feel like we bring to the table is.

Is number one, the strategy so that when you end up at the cashier, you just legally owe
less.

Number two, I think that you mentioned some of the challenge is that the average firm
employs about 10 people.

And it's that most firms are not built for scale.

And so a lot of the challenge in the marketplace that that exists today is that there
isn't a solution because the firms that are doing some strategy alongside tax preparation.

They're no longer taking any more clients, right?

I mean, like how many times have you heard that?

Uh it's not that they because, you know, they don't have a great suite of services.

It's just that they have a limiting factor on their capacity to deliver great service.

So this might surprise many people on the call, but a lot of our referring partners are
CPAs.

They are like in the tax business and they don't they don't have any more bandwidth.

for clients, either on the tax prep front, the bookkeeping front, or particularly the tax
strategy front.

And we're an operation that is built for scale.

We've built large businesses and we know how to utilize systems and technology and CRMs
and get the most out of our people and track and monitor service levels of how quickly we

r we respond to emails and text messages and phone calls.

And that's

maybe a challenge in the marketplace is that the average person that graduates from
college and gets a degree in accounting, they didn't get a gr a degree in business

management and in marketing and in sales and all of these other things that are tangible
to an operation.

And so it's maybe, I don't want to say it's easy because it's not, but it's easier to get
to a 10 employee firm and maybe a couple of partner CPAs to service a robust book of

business.

It's really difficult to take that to the next level and be able to do it at scale across
all 50 states.

And that's what Tax Hive does.

And um so I think that the tax strategy that that we get into sometimes is surprising to
folks.

In some cases, they'll take a strategy or even a myriad of strategies that we deliver and
they'll run back to their tax preparer and they'll say, Is this okay?

And we have to remind people that.

Sometimes that tax preparer is a compliance officer and they're operating not only in the,
you know, shallow end of the pool, but they like to keep you on the stairs so that

nobody's gonna drown, right?

Nobody's gonna get in trouble.

And uh anyway, we've just as complex as the tax code is, I like how you've said it.

You know, you democratize it, you make it accessible, and we make it so that we take on
the burden of knowledge base and implementation so that.

We participate right alongside our client.

We obviously need them to sign some things or transact some things.

But ultimately we're the knowledge base and we're the expertise that they can lean on.

And uh, you know, it's oftentimes the um the question of like who, not how.

And like if you get the right who, the right person on your team, you don't have to worry
about how because that person helps you do that.

That's that's where tax hive comes in.

Yeah.

you gave of the grocery store clerk is like the best analogy I've heard so far.

That is spot on with the the difference between having a CPA that's focused on what what
in the CPA industry is called compliance.

Really what that means is they file tax returns and make sure they're correct.

And that is what you want your CPA to do.

Sometimes we lose sight as taxpayers because we're like, but no, I thought they were gonna
make sure it was correct and look at all of the loopholes and and benefits and incentives

for me.

And your point is spot on.

You would not expect that grocery store clerk

To be walking around the grocery store with you going, wait, wait, wait, don't buy that
one, because this one is a better price if you get the larger size and there's a coupon

for it.

You know, it's like, yeah, well, if you are having somebody do that, you're gonna pay for
them.

Um, and so that is the reality of it, too, that I think um really needs to be
communicated.

I love this kind of education and discussion because it helps people understand.

We deal with the same thing when we're looking at, you know.

cost egg write-offs or RD credits or other benefits, the fear is, you know, how did we
miss this or what's wrong?

Or I need a new CPA.

And we're saying, no, I don't think you do.

I don't want to be your CPA.

That's not our role.

But you pull in the partners and the specialists that have those other areas of expertise
that really expound on and build out or create a more well-rounded team so that you have

that area of expertise that really exists in all areas.

Um and so it it really is incredible what you guys have done.

I have like three questions I'm so excited to drill into with you.

Um one of the first one, I don't know if you know this, but do you know if there or if
there is some percentage of firms you're aware of that have a president, CEO or managing

partner that are that is not a CPA?

I would say very, very few.

Yep.

Like not common for sure.

And

you know, that's that's maybe a we feel like it's an advantage for us.

And sometimes you need someone who's not in the trenches to be able to see the big
picture.

And um, I don't know, we we have that as an element at our firm and we we still have, you
know, our senior

uh tax advisor, our head C PA Gene Vaughn, he's in all of our executive meetings.

We're not making decisions absent of informed, you know, uh

insight from from him.

But yeah, there's there are some other overlapping benefits to the I would call it the tax
hive ecosystem or our little hive, if you will, where when somebody becomes a client with

us, we don't only try to serve them in a tax

like way we have all kinds of other business strategy and webinars

and we call them community events where we bring partner that are experts in marketing and
experts in sales and experts in, you know, uh AI and a myriad of other things that we try

to enhance your business a little bit self-serving because we know if your business grows
and scales and you're more profitable, what do you need more of?

More bookkeeping, more tax strategy, more, you know, experts on on the

CPA side and maybe to bring this full circle back to your original thought.

I love these analogies as well.

So this might be another one that maybe you enjoy.

But I think that in the accounting space, for whatever reason, the initials behind
someone's name make the client assume that that person is taking care of everything for

them as it relates to the numbers.

And that doesn't exist in the medical space.

Like I go and see my family doctor, he's licensed.

he's certified, he's graduated, he's got the diploma.

wall, but he hands me off to a specialist when I need knee surgery.

I don't go see my optometrist when, you know, I tore my ACL or something like that.

It's like, for whatever reason in the accounting space, though, that sounds a little bit
abnormal that my preparer didn't identify all of these things for me.

And um, it's just a a diff a differentiation of specialty.

And

For certain that that is the that is the exact example that we use in our world, you know,
for what we're doing is exactly that.

We're like the orthopedic, so we're doing those.

We're not actually taking care of that, you know, the family family practice, your your
primary care physician.

That's not us.

that's your CPA.

Uh so you need those specialists.

So I I do love that analogy.

So

How did Kevin O'Leary get involved in all of this?

I am very fascinated to understand.

Okay, I can I can see your background.

I love that you've got the real estate background and all these different areas and saw
the need in this space because I couldn't agree with you more.

There was a there is a lot of lack uh in this space, and you guys are filling a pretty
amazing gap.

Um, I would love to know how all of this evolved into the Kevin O'Leary relationship and
what you guys are building.

Yeah, so

uh Kevin is uh an amazing individual.

He's got a brilliant business mind.

And um I think first and foremost, what we see in Kevin, he is an equity partner.

He's not just a handsome spokesperson that, you know, wants to sing our praises.

He's actually, you know, an invested partner with Tax Hive.

And uh the way that that came about is that in a prior business, we actually had a
relationship with Kevin.

We didn't go on Shark Tank or anything like that.

Um, we know him outside of the tank.

And we were paying him as a speaker, as call it a draw to show up on a stage.

And he would show up live to our events.

And alongside that, we would offer some of our services.

And he saw how well we were able to acquire a customer, put a butt in a seat in an
audience, in an auditorium somewhere.

And he saw that, you know, our business was uh was.

worthwhile and thriving there.

And so when we look to expand our position in the tax world, he had already run a a tax
business previously.

He actually says it's one of the few bus like one of the businesses he regrets the most
about selling.

And when we went and pitched him, this is about six years ago, down in Scottsdale,
Arizona, JW Marriott, and we're like all, you know, ready, ready and uh eager with

presentations and numbers and everything.

And we get into the discussion and he's like, Well, just stop, stop.

And we're like, man, we screwed up.

Like, you know, he's and he's like, hey guys, guys, I'm in, but you don't want me.

And we're like, no, we're we're pretty sure we want you.

And he's like, no, you don't want me because the time and the I don't want to use

use something graphic like the colonoscopy that you're trying to go through in order

acquire me and bring me on board is not gonna be worth it for you.

And we were like, Well, so help us understand what you mean, Kevin.

And he's like, Well, Sony's got to sign on off on this.

The Actors Guild, ABC, ESPN, all of his partners with Shark Tank, they control a lot of
his brand and his name and his image, his likeness, to the extent that we had to go

through a full due diligence process with them.

in order for

to even be able to say yes.

So we went through that six month journey.

They all said, Great, this checks out.

Let's make it happen.

And he became an equity partner.

And, you know, I'll just I'll I'll say it in really plain terms.

Kevin can draw attention on social media in a way that I can't.

His face is people see it.

I trust it.

And not that I'm, you know,

I don't know, someone that you can't trust.

It's just that I'm not I haven't got a shark tank for as many years and I don't have the
following that Kevin has.

And so we knew early on if we're gonna do this at the scale we want to do it at, we need
someone like Kevin to set us apart and completely distinguish us from the rest of maybe

the marketplace that are good operators and intelligent people, but are, you know, working
on the corner of State Street and Main Street with their office sign on a uh a sidewalk

somewhere.

And we just knew we needed Kevin.

So that's how we we leveraged a prior relationship, made the pitch, went through the due
diligence process.

And, you know, now we we interact with him regularly.

I interview him every month as a part of our client uh experience.

They get to ask Kevin questions and anyway, it's been really fun.

Yeah, that is amazing.

I mean, yeah, uh that that sets you apart real quick.

And a lot of exposure too.

with that relationship, do you feel like you have been able to maintain a level of service
where you can still service clients at all levels?

Because, you know, one thing I think of it's well, okay, you've got Mr.

Wonderful backing you, so now you guys must be getting really big or you are really big
and you're just dealing with big clients that have a lot of money and

All of these situations.

So is that true, or how are you guys handling that from a client-service side?

Really good question.

So it is accurate that we are a large firm, we service thousands of clients.

Um, but large doesn't necessarily mean, and it certainly doesn't mean with us, that we
have a distant connection with our client.

We're very involved, three times a week.

I don't know.

tax firm in the country that does this, but three times a week we have an open forum ask a
tax pro.

Hop on with one of our top CPAs and ask any question.

And um so we're very interactive.

We host a monthly event in our headquarters where our clients come into our our office,
they meet face to face with their planner, they you know, meet their account manager, and

we have a service level, I would just say, that is monitored, controlled, and patrolled
from a management perspective to say we're not gonna exceed X number of clients per

accountant.

We're not gonna overwhelm and fracture the system and

We just know that in order for us to maintain a high service level and have a good
referral business and a good retention rate.

That's what this business is all about.

It's retaining clients.

And if we can't deliver a five star experience, then we're not going to be here very long.

And so we've had a I would say just hyper focus on client experience.

And while saying that, I can clearly put on the table, we're not perfect.

We're a business of people.

We've

you know made a mistake before, we've we've had a one-star Google review just like anybody
else out there, right?

Yeah, but we care deeply about the client.

Um, our people know that, and I would say that anywhere we've have

the occasion of a misstep, we are quick to remedy and jump on it.

And um it's it's something that we we are very uh connected to and aware of and conscious
of so that

that as we scale up to the next you know, thousand clients and the next thousand clients,
nobody feels like they're just a lot of our clients, even as president of counting team.

a hold of me, they know how to reach me.

Um, we're a very accessible group.

That's awesome.

And I I I appreciate

respect for that that perception, you know, or or the

I think highlighting the fact that sometimes we get hung up on these five star reviews.

And what I've learned, at least in my experience in my life, is I would almost rather find
a firm that doesn't have five star reviews.

And I want to see the real reviews and then how that was handled and how would that was
because it is truly, I think, in life as well.

It's like how do we handle difficult situations sometimes is more important than uh, you
know, just being perfect all the time because that that is not real out reality.

But um

But back to what you were saying in terms of service and what you guys are providing, that
sounds very expensive.

Because right in my existing CPA firm, I'm lucky if I get one call a year.

I mean, a lot of times now it's just email and that's all I get.

And maybe I'll email a question and maybe I'll get a response back in a week or two.

So talk about how that's priced.

Cause again, this comes back to is this is this within grasp for a normal average
taxpayer?

Yeah.

So I'll say uh this in a couple of ways.

So the first way that I would mention it is that as much as we are a tax firm, we are a
technology business.

And we have a CRM that's built on the backbone of Microsoft Dynamics, but it's built
in-house.

It's completely custom and unique to us.

And our client experience and our customer life cycle and all of those things give us
advantages, not only in efficiencies, but in

in costs of operating and delivering to the client a high value experience.

The second way that I would address this.

is that when a client onboards with us, there's a couple of ways that we interact with and
engage with the client.

Some of it is on a temporary basis where they just need a short term solution of tax
strategy because they had a really standout year, but it's not something that's

permanently the case, right?

They made an exit and they want to make sure that they

handle that the right way.

And they just need us on a temporary basis and we can service that client.

But then we also have a lot of others that are they have a very consistent, regular year
over year book of business, you know, that they're managing and tax liability that they're

trying to manage and uh minimize.

And so we work with both of those scenarios.

The one thing that I think makes all the difference for our people is that we try to de
risk the transaction.

And I don't know if the other firms that offer this, but we have a guarantee input that
simply says, hey, if you take a chance on us and you work with us, we have a service

level, a standard that we hold ourselves to that if we can't at least do X.

we would just give you your money back.

And what is what is X?

Well, um, it's typically double, triple, sometimes quadruple your investment with us in
identified savings.

So

So pretend for a second that you know the cost of doing business with us is a five
thousand

price tag.

It can be more than that, it can even be less than that.

But if it were five grand and you're wanting us to go find some savings for you in the tax
code, we better go find twenty, thirty, forty thousand for you.

It's a really safe bet on our part because our average client is in the like sixty to
seventy thousand range.

Um, but I would say that that's how we ensure customer satisfaction because

most of the time, in our case, a satisfied customer.

is a customer that saved money.

And if we can't do that for them, then they should tell us to take a hike, right?

And if that comes up, it would be a yeah, hey, sorry, we weren't you did everything you
had to do already and we couldn't improve upon your situation.

situation.

Absolutely.

I mean I played devil's advocate a little bit with asking that question and pinpointing,
you know, cost is always a factor, but

You know, I tell people, and I've gotten to a point in my career as well, is I have been
known to just simply say, it doesn't actually matter how much it costs.

Actually, I know you're really worried about what it costs, but you know what it really
doesn't matter because in the big scheme of things, okay, if you're paying me five

thousand dollars, the return is two hundred and twenty-five thousand.

So what does it cost?

It doesn't matter.

No, right?

It does, but when you think about it that way, the value of what many of these strategies
and structures

do particularly in this business is strategically structure something that has a benefit
to it.

So it's a little bit different than just something like just strict compliance or, you
know, tax preparation, which oftentimes there's no, I guess quote unquote, benefit if you

want to look at it from a tax savings standpoint.

It's just simply you're filing a tax return that's accurate.

You're not going to get audited.

So you're mitigating risk.

There is a benefit, but not necessarily like a ROI, so to speak.

Um, I think much of what you guys do, not everything, because you know, tax prep is tax
prep.

Um, but uh, but certainly there's a lot of benefit there.

Do you mind?

I don't I'll put you on the spot with this one.

I didn't give you this question in advance, but do you mind sharing with us, let's say,
the top three strategies at a high level that you guys can quickly identify for people um

that you see missed or things that you can help people implement?

Yeah, I can.

And maybe I

I approach that part of the question, I'll just also maybe mention that like the the tax
strategy space for us is one of not risk taking and not gray area and red flag audit

triggering stuff.

Like that's that's the first thing that I should put on the table because when we mention
a strategy that somebody's never done.

never done usually there's some apprehension about it.

Like is there a reason I haven't done this before and is this so

the reason that I need to mention that is that when we deliver a tax plan to a client,
it's not uncommon for either them or their neighbor CPA or their aunt uncle CPA to go,

Ooh, I don't know if you want to do that.

And I would just mention that A, we back up all of our work for every single one of our
clients.

We've never for someone that did it the way that we

we instructed, we've had like I think one client.

who said they did something that they didn't actually do, right?

And that's where you get in trouble.

But we back our clients up with audit protection to say, hey, we can provide the
documentation and help you navigate that.

But we don't have a lot of clients that are audited.

It's like a really rare thing because we just do everything by the book and we do it the
right way.

But the top strategy that I would say show up for a client

Um, would start out with some very mundane basic things.

We want to make sure that everyone's not missing the blocking and tackling of football or
in in tax in the tax base.

You know, make sure you're doing the home office deduction the right way.

Make sure your section 179 is done the right way.

Make sure that the Augusta rule, rule 280A, that everyone knows about, but that almost
nobody does.

And

we just have the system and the process outlined in a very

like systematic approach to say it's not hard to implement rule two eighty A.

Let's get it done and let's save the twenty grand and create the twenty thousand dollar
deduction on the business side.

Like the most common strategies I would say that pop up for us um would include the August
rule.

It's kind of a blanket, almost everyone can do it.

Um and then you get into

S Corp election.

A lot of people have an LLC, but they didn't know that they could tell the IRS how they
wanted to be taxed.

And uh andor just a real estate person or an Uber driver or

a electrician or you know, home services business who's like, I've just been doing
everything in my own name, or they're a consultant and they're operating as a 1099.

And so that one comes up very frequently.

But the other stuff that I would say that is very commonly missed but is a massive,
massive opportunity for people, cost seg,

RD tax credits.

Um, we have all kinds of solar and you know, energy efficient type tax credits.

We have the work opportunity tax credit, and then I would say on the dynasty side.

you know, some people are unfamiliar with Solo 401Ks.

Um they're not familiar with oil and gas or mineral.

they're not familiar with accelerated donation strategies.

And those are the things that I mean, they're home runs.

They're big dollars, you know.

And I think some of our clients sometimes expect like, my tax strategy is just gonna bunch
be a bunch of headache and documentation in order to save fifteen hundred bucks.

It's like

no, no, I mean like maybe on some strategies where you're tracking your mileage or
something, but dynasty strategies, like, let's go find you 30, let's go find you $100,000.

go find you a hundred and fifty thousand.

Like let's go find you big chunks of money that are not, you know, now they gotta flow
through your tax bracket and find a deduction.

We quantify every strategy for a client.

Say, hey, if you're gonna do this one, here's how much we think it'll save you.

And that also just

just gives a client the gusto to say, yeah, I see those numbers.

Okay, I have time for that.

Yeah, that's awesome.

oh

of the strategy, a lot of people are like, I don't think I'm gonna do that.

Yeah, I saw a YouTube video about that, but that sounds messy and difficult.

Yeah, that's a great point because that is kind of then leads into another question, which
is all right, then there are strategies that result in alternative investments and complex

structures.

I mean, I could throw out a few super con, you know, there was the conservation easements
were were actually very risky, but

were not as complicated as some of them.

But then you've got like, well, how about a micro captive, which for the just lay person
can get very complicated.

And then you've got these um all such legal structures.

There's all these interesting, you know, investment things.

All of them, you know, I am in the the tax technical consulting space.

And they're complicated for me.

So that does lead into then, you know, where is that fine line between the things that you
suggest and that that are very implementable and that you all provide going back to the

roadmap concept or image of of how to essentially benefit from that strategy.

But then where some things get just really complicated and it's difficult for people to
wrap their heads around and implement.

I mean

Where do you kind of look at that and is that just part of your discussion with a client
and understanding what their appetite is for different opportunities?

For sure, yeah.

It's the classic is the juice worth just the bees?

Yeah.

Is it worth all this headache and documentation and maybe multiple returns for various uh
entities that I'm needing to set up in order to

this off?

And it's like, okay, let let's let's start with the dollar figure.

What actually is on the table if we spend all of this time?

And then num number two, I usually treat this as a uh like

A scenario of alternative, okay?

Which is like when we are forward-thinking tax planning, this is it's you know, 2026,
we'll call it halftime at in 2026, or whatever year you're watching this podcast, right?

You have about six more months, or maybe you're watching this in October, November, you
got like three, four, you know, three or two more months left to figure out your tax

strategy for 2026.

And far too many people.

are waiting until the following year of

to look in the rearview mirror and say, what happened in 26 and what do I owe?

And here's where where this comes into play with what I was talking about about the uh
choice of alternative.

When you can look forward and say, here's how I anticipate the rest of my year mapping
out.

You may not know it to the exact dollar, but most businesses can forecast revenues in such
a way that would indicate.

I might have a tax liability of X, or I have this much that's going to be uh part of my
AGI.

And so once I once I get to that number, I can then say, okay, do I want this $100,000 to
get shipped off to the IRS?

Or do I want to deploy the $100,000 somewhere else in an investable strategy that might
have some risk attached to it, but I already know the $100,000 with the IRS?

Pays a 0% return and is a, you know, a black hole of where my money goes.

And so almost anything else is a better alternative, let alone an alternative that might
pay you a return and keep $30,000 or $40,000 in your pocket, right?

So I try to tell people we're not going to ask you to pull new money out of your account.

We're going to ask you to use dollars that were already going to go to the IRS for these
for these purposes.

And now it's just a a choice of alternative.

wanna send your money to the government or do you wanna keep some of it and take some risk
on some of it?

Yeah, that's it's it's smart.

And I think um the juice is worth a squeeze squeeze.

That's exactly the scenario in which people should be looking at different strategies.

But I love that you guys can kind of work

through that process and I'm sure some of the complexities with your clients.

Um don't hate me for this.

I have to ask the question because again, I'm playing devil's advocate.

I have recently personally for the first time gotten the question, well, you know what?

I don't need you guys because Chat GPT did it for me, but I would just like you to sign
off on it and tell me that everything's good.

Um, so we are doing some content and some videos.

In fact, I will have a podcast on this topic exactly as it relates to cost segregation
because it is not the same thing.

But I would love to pose that same question because I know that inevitably that is coming.

That, well, you know, why do I need a consultant now?

Because you know, these lane large these LLMs, you know, are perfectly capable now of, you
know, developing a strategy for me.

Um, so how are you guys addressing that?

Yeah, and I think the follow-up question actually is the answer where that person says,
Are you willing to sign off on it?

Because guess who won't sign off on it?

The AI agent.

And I would just emphasize that your tax strategy, your tax compliance, and the numbers
that you submit, you know, to the IRS, they're not a Instagram post.

They're not an email that you're sending off.

Like

these are numbers that have that are of consequence and that matter.

And I think that AI has a role to provide maybe more efficiency in the space or allow us
to get to the 20, you know, sorry, get in into the red zone.

Yeah.

And then allow us to take the wall across the

line, those f those final 20 yards that need a human, you know, brain power, detail
oriented and licensed approach to it.

And so I I would say if anything, what I think AI might bring to the space is maybe a
measure of affordability that hasn't existed before because we as operators can uh infuse

a little more technology into the first, you know, heavy lift of the project and reviewing
and analyzing and forensics type work.

But the the key to your question, I think the real answer is that.

Everyone wants the assurance that they can sleep at night.

And AI doesn't give you that assurance.

I mean, there's always the disclaimer at the end that says, I'm not a legal advisor, I'm
not a tax advisor, consult with your own.

And um, you know, I don't think AI trusts itself.

I can't even trust AI right now to know that it's 2026.

Like when I when I create an event for my pickleball club and I tell it that it's on June
nineteenth and twentieth.

it'll say Thursday and Friday, June nineteenth and twentieth, which is in 2025, not in
2026.

It's like, there's enough errors and omissions that if you don't have the expertise
yourself to double check the AI work, you're gonna need to end up paying for it anyway,

with an expert.

And that additional eye of inspection is not free.

And

I guess you would just have to ask yourself what is your risk tolerance?

And if you're a risk taker.

then roll the dice with AI.

Yeah.

And the penalties and the fees and the headache

come, it's probably not worth the squeeze, you know, that that juice and that that's the
sour juice that is coming is probably not worth it.

it.

Yeah, you're you're spot on.

I uh I actually had somebody share with me a screenshot the other day that I was I was I
thought was fascinating.

Um in essence they had asked Chat GPT who are the best providers of X and you know the you
know the the people I should go look for.

And it pulled up here's the top 10.

And it outlined those.

And it was very interesting.

I looked at that and I said, well, that's a very interesting list.

I I see some interesting omissions on this list.

And so I clicked it, and what it was was ChatGPT had taken a list that a provider had put
on their own website.

That they had written and they said, Here are the top 10 providers in 2026 for X.

And of course, they were number one.

And then they listed nine others that they knew were very inferior firms to theirs.

And then they omitted other uh comparable firms.

So it was very strategic.

And ChatGPT just took that and said, Here's your top 10 providers.

I think that.

In and of itself, when we understand that it is regurgitating information that is put out
there on websites and in data that we as marketers and business owners put out for

informational purposes, and it uses that as guidance.

Um, so when looking at things like this tax strategy and tax technical, I think you again
really hit it on the head because

ultimately it is like where is the data behind that?

And I've said this before in this podcast, a lot of people don't don't understand, but the
term the IRS uses is the onus is on the taxpayer.

So when you file something and you claim it on your tax return, the IRS is saying this
line you sign, this says in in whatever it is, you know, in perjury or whatever, that you

are swearing with you know blood, sweat and tears

that every number you put on this you have verified, validated, reported, tracked, and and
quantified.

And that, you know, you are promising all over that that it is accurate.

So and and not just the numbers, but the data behind the numbers with which you came up
with those.

And I think sometimes people don't realize that.

Um, that they're like, well, you know, it's like, let's see if they approve it.

It it's not the case.

We get that question actually with

R and D credits.

You know, they'll say, well, yeah, we'll file it and see if the IRS approves it.

Well, that's not really how it goes.

Like we do the calculation and say, this is what you are entitled to.

This is what you can claim based on all of the facts.

The IRS doesn't approve it or disapprove it.

It's going to assume that you did the work, you verified, you validated, you've done, you
know, a CPA is signed off of it and it's correct.

If you get audited and you don't have proof, you're in trouble.

And that's where the penalties, the interest, the uh, you know, the risks involved is it's
not just simply, we're gonna disallow this.

Uh there are penalties that are assessed when those things occur.

Um, so I think that's something that's that's important to highlight.

And I I don't know that um consumers across the board really understand that.

So um you you articulated it beautifully though.

well, and I would just add, I think that the the cliche of you get what you pay for is
very true in the tax space.

And uh I mean not in all cases, but I would say in most cases, if you're trying to take
the turbo tax H and R, I'm not trying to disparage, you know, firms like that, but the

it's like if if you were to go to LegalZoom to build your estate plan, boilerplate
services are going to deliver

Kind of the equivalent of what you paid for them.

And I think the same is somewhat true about uh large language models and AI in the tax
space, that I don't know, you might be able to get a few things done, but uh there's

certainly going to be some things missed or some things done incorrectly.

And I would just knowing what we know about the tax code and how much money we can
identify in savings for a client, there's just money left on the table.

or the money that you think you're capturing is probably gonna trigger that you don't want
to have to deal with later on.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Devin, I am so grateful for the time.

You guys are doing such a cool thing.

I've been working with you uh for a couple of years now and have been thrilled with the
the work we've done together.

Um, a quick question I have again for our audience you guys are based in Utah.

Um, I think that the CPA model also historically has very much been an older style, you
know, like our attorney, you know, brick and mortar.

We go down, we sit down, we look through our books, we go through that.

Um, talk a little bit about how you serve clients and and how that looks um based on
location, who you're serving, what areas, and uh how you're set up.

Yeah, so I mean, similar to this podcast, right?

We utilize technology to create a very interactive experience and as much in person

as it can be to, you know, zoom call with your tax strategist.

And uh but I would just say that most of our client experience exists in a portal where
you log in and it's, you know, single user sign on and it's encrypted and safe and

and uh all of your documentation, instead of putting it in a shoebox, is gonna go into the
portal.

And what does that do for you and us?

It makes you more accurate and more detailed and you know your experience a lot more
seamless.

It makes us much more efficient on the tax preparation side and and even on the tax
strategy side when we have all of your documents in one place.

And I would just say if you came into tax hive today,

you'd see a floor.

I can take my computer out there right now just a floor of human beings interacting with
clients with their

stacks of papers and filing cabinets everywhere for people to store things in.

Dr.

Technology is driving our operation.

And, you know, whether you're in our backyard or you're in a distant state somewhere, we
actually think that we're going to deliver uh a superior

experience to you because you also don't have to get in your car and pack up your things
and sit and wait at someone's desk while they, you know, peck on a computer for you to

tell you what you owe.

So um if anything, I think the the experience is enhanced.

But certainly some people want that neighborly experience and we're not opposed to that
either.

Clients come into our office, uh they come in for our monthly event.

They spend two, three days with us.

sit down with their planner and have a very in person experience.

That is amazing.

Well, I I love it.

again, uh, I think you guys have a lot going for you because of the premise with which
you've created this firm.

Uh, and instead of needing to take an existing older process and evolve it, I think
sometimes when you get to start from the ground up and build it in a very forward

thinking.

time, especially when technology is really advancing rapidly.

You guys have this beautiful mentality and embracing of technology and AI resources that I
think really are benefiting taxpayers and your clients.

And uh it really shows in what you guys are doing throughout the company.

So it uh share a little bit with how people can connect.

I know we have a link that we'll share in the show notes that allow people to schedule a
free consultation with you guys, which I think is amazing.

Really connect and see what the opportunities are.

But any other resources that that you have that we can link to in the show notes?

yeah.

So I mean obviously uh real tax hive, if you wanted to go see some of our socials, we're
not, you know, we're the most entertaining group, if you will, on social media.

So we're not like that influencer that you're just gonna love when our content pops up
because it is tax related.

Um, but yeah, I would recommend uh hitting that link in the show notes.

If you are a business owner, real estate professional, you know, entrepreneur, full
proprietor, wherever you sit.

and you're meeting some.

tax strategy that reaches beyond maybe um you know, cost seg and some of the other things
that you guys do at Engineer Tax Services Heidi, we're happy to explore the rest of it and

see maybe what is missing.

If you're a CPA on the other end of this call and you're like, Man, how do I like not tell
a new prospect no and still be able to profit from that engagement?

have a referral network that we have.

to bring you into where you know you could refer a client to us and still be paid on an
annual basis when they renew with us.

Um but yeah, I would just say taxhy.com and uh use the link that Heidi shares and we look
forward to hopefully earning your interest and seeing if we're the right fit, right

partnership, and just greatly appreciate the time to be on here and and always good to
interact with you, Heidi.

Absolutely.

You two, thank you so much for joining us.

I can't wait.

We'll get this out to uh our friends and listeners.

And thanks again.

It was always amazing to hear what you guys are building.

Likewise, thank you so much.